Audio Transcript: In conversation with Professor Tim Jackson - Part 1

In conversation with Professor Tim Jackson - Part 1

Welcome to connect with climate change a series of virtual events from ScottishPower in collaboration with the University of Strathclyde and University of Glasgow taking place throughout 2021. These events offer a platform to engage with academics, students, public, policy and businesses to share ideas and views on a range of key climate change topics ahead of the cop 26 climate change summit in Glasgow, November 2021. These podcasts are focused on the topic of revisiting consumption for a climate friendly future. I am Deirdre Shaw, Professor of Marketing and consumer research at University of Glasgow, and I'm delighted to be joined by Professor Tim Jackson, director of the Centre for the understanding of sustainable prosperity and Professor of sustainable development at the University of Surrey. Professor Jackson is a world-renowned expert on sustainability and author of acclaimed publications, including the landmark book, prosperity without growth, and most recently, post growth life after capitalism. Over three podcasts, Tim and I will be exploring key questions, including what do climate friendly consumption lifestyles look like? What changes are needed to support a sustainable consumption future? And how can we support and embed behavioural transformation in consumption? Welcome to the first of these three podcasts where we will focus on consumption and a sustainable society.

So welcome, Tim, it's really great to have you here. Tim, you've just published a new book post growth, life after capitalism. I read it and I would absolutely recommend it. In this latest book and throughout your work over many years, now, you've pointed to the problems of overconsumption to both human and Planetary prosperity. So, referring to the cycles of consumption that succeed so well, because they fail to satisfy and the iron cage of consumerism. So, we're really presented with an image of citizens being trapped by consumption. So, before we unpack these challenges, in our later conversation, I'd like to start on a more visionary note and ask, as you also invite us to do in the book to dare to see beyond and imagine and to dream, if you like, of a society where we've got this right, and ask you, what does consumption look like in a sustainable society?

I think it's really important to distinguish the energy between consumption and consumerism, because we're never not going to consume, we're never not going to have consumption. And, that is obviously going to involve, you know, consumption of material, consumption of energy, consumption of services, consumption of things in some form or another. And so, I think what we're talking about really is, is going beyond consumerism, and I would define, I know, the very different ways of doing this, but I would define consumerism in the way as an attempt to fulfil all of our needs, social, psychological, and material, through the consumption of, of material things. And so, we turn over, it's almost as though we turn over our entire human aspirations to processes of consumption. And to me, that's kind of what consumerism is.

And, and so the vision, if you like, is of thinking of our human aspirations for what they are, in other words, for being psychological needs, for being social needs, for having to do with relationships to having to do with friendship, and community, and to some extent, also to having, having to do with our own physical, psychological and social health, and putting that concept at the heart of our vision, so that we go back if you'd like to go back to the, to the roots of what it is to be human to ask what it means to be well and to do well, in society and to place that at the, at the heart of vision of, of human progress. And I think that's a place where actually we can be materially light, we can do with less consumption, we can have fewer material things we can feel less burdened, we can be freer, we can explore our own human potential from a very, very different perspective.

Not one which is just by how much we have, or how much we own, but actually, by the richness of what we do, and how we interact with each other, and what forms of fulfilment we achieve. And it's, it's that sense of, of a richness that lies beyond consumer, consumerism, and beyond consumer things. And beyond consumption itself. That, I think is the vision that I'm trying to paint in post growth. And I'm trying to, I think, almost recover, if you like a sense of the human spirit that goes beyond materialism.

And I think that's a really helpful and important distinction to start out with, in terms of consumerism, and consumption. So, thinking about this vision, what would be the key changes that we might observe in terms of our role as consumers and our markets and how we, we kind of understand consumption?

There are lots of things that kind of would need to change. But I, for me, it's important to approach this in the right sequence. And I kind of think in a way the right sequence is to think Well, what's, what's wrong with the system that we have that we would…and how precisely would we want to shift that and to me, one of the things that comes to mind there, one of the most important things is this, this question of shifting away from a metaphor of growth, a metaphor of more and more, towards a metaphor, actually, that comes that, to me, belongs to the most crucial lesson that we've learned from the pandemic, it belongs to the lesson of, of health. And that is a metaphor of balance.

If you think about health, health is not continual growth, it's not about more and more, it's actually much more about balance, it's much more about not having too much, and not having too little, it's not this simple idea that more and more is always better. It's actually that there is a kind of a point at which things are optimal, which things are balanced, that which things at which point the organism is functioning well, at which point, the mind is functioning well, at which point our appetites are in balance, at which point, our skills are in balance with the challenges that we face in society. And to me, it's understanding that what we're aiming for is balance rather than a sort of linear or exponential increase. That's the foundational point, if you'd like from which we begin to design our approach to this vision. And where it's gone wrong, it seems to me, of course, is that markets don't really do that very well. They don't distinguish at what point for example, you know, food is more food is a good thing to have, as opposed to less food in certain circumstances. And so, we find ourselves, you know, continually advertising foods to our kids that are not only not particularly nutritious, so they don't satisfy nutrition, balances, but they are in excess things that leads to imbalances in health.

And so, handing over all of these functions to markets, and to profit making firms whose goal is to accumulate profit, is a recipe for social disaster. And so, I think we have to kind of look at ways that have to rein in that profit maximisation motive that work to the benefit of society and individuals rather than just shareholders. And that think beyond the simplicity of the market, that profit maximisation principle of the market, and towards a principle of the balance that contributes to the health of the individual, to the health of populations, ultimately, to the health of the planet as well.

You know, I can't agree more these balances. It's really top of our minds right now, I guess in terms of our own health and Planetary health. I wondered if you could say a bit about how you know, in this vision and what ways does the economy support human and Planetary health?

I mean, that's a really good question. And obviously, what I'm kind of suggesting is that's exactly what the economy should be doing, in the sense of health is the fundamental basis for prosperity. And the economy is about delivering prosperity and provisioning prosperity, then its principles must be aligned with health, it must be aligned with the health of the body, with the health of the psyche, with the health of community and with the health of the planet. And so, we're talking in terms really of rethinking economics as a kind of economy of, if you like an economy of care, because it's care, that is a fundamental basis for assuring our health in all sorts of different ways. And so, we're looking essentially for an economy that nourishes that pursues, wellbeing rather flower output, and that measures its progress in those in those ways. And that's a very different economy than one that prioritises growth in the GDP and measures its success against the rates of growth that we achieve. In that very, very narrow indicator. It's an economy that looks much more carefully at the dimensions of health and how they're playing out in society.

And I think it also, in many ways, renegotiates, or challenges, the kind of traditional divide between markets and state. And makes it clear also that that community and home, for example, are essential elements of economy, and, and have an absolutely vital role to play in, in those relationships of care. Many of the primary activities of care actually take place in the home, outside the market and outside the state as well. And so, it becomes very important to reconfigure where we think economy is happening and to protect not just the market, and neither the simplistic notion of an intervening state, but rather a facilitating an enabling state that allows market home community to function in, in an economy of care.

Yeah, we've mentioned growth quite often here. And the title of your book is post growth, life after capitalism. Could you say a bit more about what we're having, instead, have we abandoned growth and capitalism?

It's difficult to sort of talk about abandoning because what we have to do, I think, is build the foundations for what follows on we have to build those foundations. Firstly, from that clear vision, and insofar as the vision is a vision of health and the economy that guides it is an economy of care. One of the things that we have to do, very urgently, I would say is to protect the livelihoods that in there to protect our care. And that's, that's one of the things that's gone, you know, radically missing and was missing, actually, even before the pandemic that for several decades before the pandemic it was precisely those people who matter most to us in terms of health, and in terms of care, and in terms of our livelihoods and our wellbeing, who had suffered whose livelihoods themselves were precarious, who, who worked under increasing obligations to increase productivity, rather than to provide the care of, of human services that comes through the dedication of time that our nurses and our carers and our teachers and our cleaners even put into society.

That quality of work in society had gone missing, it had been under rewarded undervalued until, until that point at which we realised actually these people who have been so mistreated, misrepresented in capitalism are the most important in society. And to me, that's, you know, that's the lesson that we have tried to run away from all too quickly. So, the discussion for example, around, you know, the 1% pay offer to NHS workers, just months after we'd stood on our doorsteps applauding those people for saving our lives, is an indication that we have not learned that lesson. And so this society, this vision of a world that…the workings of an economy after the pandemic, actually, but also to some extent, after capitalism, is to place those that work and those people in the centre of the organisation of our economy, because they turned out to be the most valuable and that ability to work, that ability to care, inside the market and outside the market, in the home, in our communities, in volunteer communities, building that capacity seems to be to me to be one of those central dimensions, the central structural dimension of an economy of care after capitalism.

And you do, you know, when you do talk about work and home, in your words, you know, paid employment looks nothing like the utopian dream of restorative labour and fulfilling work. So, this is a really important aspect doesn't matter around care, both in terms of work and society, individuals and around consumption. But if I could just move along a little bit in terms of thinking about our consumption lifestyles, if you like in this vision. So, there’ll clearly be things that will need to have less off as a reduction in consumption is imperative. But what you've been talking about, is this being balanced with things that we can enjoy more of in terms of human prosperity. And I wondered how you think consumer citizens will respond to these shifts, what are the sorts of things that were maybe enjoying, but also finding challenging and their revised future?

I mean, it's interesting that you use the word challenge there. Because, you know, I think this it's a feature of consumerism and consumer society, and indeed, of capitalism to some extent, to kind of offer us what appears to be a simple, comfortable vision of having everything at our fingertips of convenience, and almost unending luxury as the end point. And of course, some people can achieve that in a finite material world. But the idea that everybody can achieve it in perpetuity as a kind of kind chimera, it's a sort of, you know, it's a false god, it's a vision, that actually isn't achievable by everybody. And that's one of the problems of consumerism. But I think there's a deeper one, which is that it doesn't align Well, with the human psyche, we weren't evolved for lives of absolute and unending comfort. And therefore, actually, our brains don't respond well. And our physical organism doesn't respond well to that environment, it actually responds to challenge. And so, you know, there's a, there's a very fundamental point in a way that this vision of a better richer, more fulfilling life actually has to turn and face challenge, rather than simply try to avoid it and find the comfortable path.

But in turning to face that challenge, and I think, you know, this is something that we should be teaching our kids from the moment they come into the world, in a supportive environment, not kind of chucking them into, you know, impossible situations where they have to sink or swim. And, and I'm of an age where I remember swimming teachers who used to literally do that to us, you know, here's your challenge guy, this is a deep pool, you can't actually touch the bottom, learn to swim or start, you know, choking with a fear of drowning. That's, that's a way that we used to teach kids challenge. And I think it's entirely wrong. And it's also entirely wrong to move away from that and say, look, you're never gonna have to swim, here's your armbands, here's your supportive environment, we're even going to increase the density of the water you're swimming in, to make swimming easier for you. And they'll always be someone stood, to drag you out if anything goes wrong. And actually, the knowledge and our understanding of the human psyche is that it works best. And it is most fulfilling.

When you develop skill to meet challenge. And you push that process so that as you develop your skill, and you can then meet a challenge more easily you develop more skill and you can meet more challenge and you what you gain in that way as a sort of almost an ever expanding horizon of human potential, that has just become closed down by this idea that we shouldn't find things challenging that we should find things comfortable, that we can always find the material solution, that the future is an endless cornucopia of never wanting for anything and never having to strive that divisions lead us completely away from the path where I think the evidence shows the past where real human fulfilment lies in, in, in striving against challenges, to prove ourselves develop our skills and achieve a sense of wellbeing.

That just doesn't exist in, in consumer society. You know, it sounds perhaps a little bit kind of abstract the way that I've framed it, you know, I'm thinking of the satisfactions of virtuosity of being really good at something I'm thinking of the satisfactions of care of really connecting with other people. I'm thinking of the satisfactions of contemplation those spaces between the business of our lives where horizons open up that we never imagined were there and all of those satisfactions. It seems to me, have that same character of accepting challenge, and to some extent, resisting the seductive lure of comfort, convenience and material access.

I mean, it sounds as well, Tim, that you're talking a bit about flow, which I'd like to talk a bit more about later. But I guess I'm facing this challenge, it's important for us to be able to envisage this future and see ourselves as part of the shift.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's definitely important to know what those roots are, are towards this place. And it's definitely important to have some sense of the benefits that they bring. But I do kind of feel in a way, what I don't want to say is, what exactly this, this place looks like in the future, because I think it looks different for everybody. And I think one person's vision of it is not the same as, as actually people discovering that vision for themselves. I think the lockdown, I would argue, gave us some insights into it at certain points. And I'm not trying to trivialise the, you know, the kind of either the tragedy of the pandemic, or indeed the real, huge human difficulties that people suffered under lockdown. But I think there were moments there, where we could see that, say, a life in which we were more connected to nature in which we had stronger relationships with each other, in which we were not driven constantly into the mindset of shopping and materialism, in which we developed those new skills that we had kind of forgotten about that.

And it's very interesting that there's evidence, you know, it has to be said from quite early on in the pandemic, but there is evidence of people saying, there are bits of this situation, I would quite like to go on afterwards, I'd quite like that ability to spend more time in my family or to develop these skills. I'd quite like that to be a part of our post pandemic world. And so, it's those kinds of components. I think that give us a sense of how we can build this vision, even if they don't absolutely tell us exactly what everybody is doing in that post capitalist world, they give us a sense of the direction of travel.

I think, Tim, you very kindly answered the question. You said you didn't want to answer.

Oh, good.

A sense of what would be the kind of critical differences, the sorts of things that we would see in this session that would show that we have moved forward around those kind of relationships? And the insights that we've, we've seen from the pandemic?

Yeah, I mean, I think also, the other thing, we would, we would say at the least, is that we didn't have such a huge footprint on the planet that we weren't de stabilising the climates and using resources faster than they could be replaced and damaging our oceans and our rivers and so on. So, there's that would be a consequence of having got this right, this vision. And, and equally, of course, it would be a society in which we would need to see we would hope to see less inequality, we'd hope to, to find more cohesive communities, we'd hope to not be in that position that I was describing, when the most important workers in our society were under rewarded and had precarious livelihoods. So, all of these things, if you like, at the macroeconomic level, or the macro, planetary level, these would be very important characteristics of success in that society.

No, thank you. I think you've really highlighted those macro planetary dimensions, filtering right down to our everyday individual, family, community lives. Thank you, Tim, for your time today, and I look forward to continuing this conversation with you in our second podcast as part of the connect with climate change series.